Neverside

Originally posted by krustie:

Religon is for the weak.

<chuckle> I needed a good laugh.

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When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

You can be bad with God. Therefore, you can be good without God.

Me? I'm without, but apparently I was pretty dang good last night.

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Bmovies are BACK!

Originally posted by Celldss:

D'oh! Sorry about that - thanks for the reminder. Sure, morality that is relative (like most forms of relativism) is self-defeating because it violates the law of noncontradiction. For instance, relativist A states that murder is a moral evil, and if we assume relativistic truth, then he is correct. Relativist B states that moral is not a relativistic evil, and he is also correct. Hence the obvious contradiction (in it's simplest form) and the tenuousness of moral relativism. Cultural relativism, like individual relativism also crumbles under it's own logical weight - the logical conclusions undermining the premise.

Right. They're both correct. But Under relativism there can be more than one correct answer. The answers aren't mutually exclusive.

Lets take physics at this: Under General Relativity, one person can see a car go by at 50mph, another person see the same car at the same time and sees it going at 100mph. They are both correct. This occurs everyday in real life. Under any relativism no absolute truths exist, all 'truths' are inextricably linked to where, when and by whom they were determined. There is no contradiction, because different truths weren't determined by the same person at the same time.

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Originally posted by vierstein:

Right. They're both correct. But Under relativism there can be more than one correct answer. The answers aren't mutually exclusive.

Lets take physics at this: Under General Relativity, one person can see a car go by at 50mph, another person see the same car at the same time and sees it going at 100mph. They are both correct. This occurs everyday in real life. Under any relativism no absolute truths exist, all 'truths' are inextricably linked to where, when and by whom they were determined. There is no contradiction, because different truths weren't determined by the same person at the same time.

I understand what relativism is, but you are completely incorrect.

#1 - You did not respond in the least to the blatant contradiction that I pointed out other than to say, "There is no contradiction".

#2 - Truth is by very definition exclusive and absolute. For instance, something that's true cannot be 50% truth and 50% lie. Again, that would violate the law of noncontradiction. Truth is always true.

#3 - Your example is flawed because you are not comparing truth, but perspective, which is indeed subjective. For instance, let's say a car IS going 50mph. His speedometer says it, he's clocked going that fast, 50mph IS his speed. One person sees him going and says he's going 50mph. Another says that he's going 30mph. They are not both right. Person A is right, person B is wrong. What's the difference? Person B's perspective was wrong.

#4 - If relativism is true, then there is no point in contradicting me, because I am right. But if I am right, then relativism is false. Another obvious contradiction.

Relativism cannot be true because it contradicts itself. If you choose to respond, please address the logical problems that I've presented.

___________________

When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

Why would you need something or someone to make the good of you come out? Shouldn't that happen simply because your a good person? If you need god to 'encourage' you to be good, then that's probably not as genuine as a person who is good regardless...I donno, I'm not really making any sense so I'll shut up...Please don't hit me.

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Eh...I've changed my mind.

Without a god to tell you what is good and what is evil, what are you judging it off?

eg. I consider helping myself at the expense of others a good thing, however, other people claim this is "evil". I think it is just life.

Originally posted by celldss:

I understand what relativism is, but you are completely incorrect.

#1 - You did not respond in the least to the blatant contradiction that I pointed out other than to say, "There is no contradiction".

See my response to the last bit.

Originally posted by celldss:

#2 - Truth is by very definition exclusive and absolute. For instance, something that's true cannot be 50% truth and 50% lie. Again, that would violate the law of noncontradiction. Truth is always true.

False. Paradoxes exist.

Originally posted by celldss:

#3 - Your example is flawed because you are not comparing truth, but perspective, which is indeed subjective. For instance, let's say a car IS going 50mph. His speedometer says it, he's clocked going that fast, 50mph IS his speed. One person sees him going and says he's going 50mph. Another says that he's going 30mph. They are not both right. Person A is right, person B is wrong. What's the difference? Person B's perspective was wrong.

His speedometer is saying he's going 50mph but he's not actually going 50mph we don't actually know how fast he's going but its probably nearer to a 10^6mph (That is if you were a stationary observer outside the universe) but it's entirely irrelevant, because only his relative speed is important.
There is no wrong perspective. If you see someone going 100mph hour relative to you, that's important for you because if you crash into him it doesn't matter what his speedometer says.

Originally posted by celldss:

#4 - If relativism is true, then there is no point in contradicting me, because I am right. But if I am right, then relativism is false. Another obvious contradiction.

You are right for you, but really you are false for me. Because I think therefore I am. Because I am, I exist. I therefore define existence by me.

Originally posted by celldss:

Relativism cannot be true because it contradicts itself. If you choose to respond, please address the logical problems that I've presented.

How do I respond? Okay, it's not that hard. The Law of non-contradiction is false. Everything is relative. Contradictions do not actually exist they are a figment of our subjective imagination.

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Last edited by vierstein, November 25th, 2005 03:53 PM (Edited 2 times)

Originally posted by vierstein:

Originally posted by celldss:

#2 - Truth is by very definition exclusive and absolute. For instance, something that's true cannot be 50% truth and 50% lie. Again, that would violate the law of noncontradiction. Truth is always true.

False. Paradoxes exist.

Nice try, but a paradox does not represent an instance of relativism, but more likely, an example of ignorance. Paradoxes have been and are eventually solved. Again, you should not state that what I say is false. Remember, debate is pointless if you are a relativist.

Quote:

His speedometer is saying he's going 50mph but he's not actually going 50mph we don't actually know how fast he's going but its probably nearer to a 10^6mph (That is if you were a stationary observer outside the universe) but it's entirely irrelevant, because only his relative speed is important.
There is no wrong perspective. If you see someone going 100mph hour relative to you, that's important for you because if you crash into him it doesn't matter what his speedometer says.

You did not read my example, or misunderstood it. He is clocked by a radar at 50mph, which is exactly what his speedometer says. That IS his speed, it has been proven. What a relativist does is try to claim that perspective trumps proof which is absolutely wrong. If I look at a white object through red lenses and say that the object is red, I am wrong - it only appears red to me. The contradiction you are presenting is irreconcilable.

Originally posted by veirstein:

Originally posted by celldss:

#4 - If relativism is true, then there is no point in contradicting me, because I am right. But if I am right, then relativism is false. Another obvious contradiction.

You are right for you, but really you are false for me. Because I think therefore I am. Because I am, I exist. I therefore define existence by me.

I am not sure how you think you "define" your own existence, but it is irrelevant given the premise of our discussion. If I say that relativism is universally false for all people at all times in all places, am I right or wrong? Again, you must read the example. To say "well, it's right for you" is a misunderstanding of what I'm saying. I'm saying it's false for EVERYONE. Is that right or wrong?

Quote:

Originally posted by celldss:

Relativism cannot be true because it contradicts itself. If you choose to respond, please address the logical problems that I've presented.

How do I respond? Okay, it's not that hard. The Law of non-contradiction is false. Everything is relative. Contradictions do not actually exist they are a figment of our subjective imagination.

Then, according to your relativistic standpoing, the law of noncontradiction (LNC) is both true and false at the same time, which cannot be true. And we continue dancing in circles...

I'm sorry veirstein, but this is a worldview which is utterly, practically, and logically impossible. But - out of curiosity, how exactly did you determine that the LNC was false? It you genuinely believe that it is false, then you can NEVER believe that anything is true, because it could be both true and false at the same time.

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When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

Last edited by Celldss, November 25th, 2005 07:44 PM (Edited 1 times)

Originally posted by celldss:

Nice try, but a paradox does not represent an instance of relativism, but more likely, an example of ignorance. Paradoxes have been and are eventually solved.

Right. Which is why when you point one out (in relativism) it isn't because it is actually there.

Originally posted by celldss:

You did not read my example, or misunderstood it. He is clocked by a radar at 50mph, which is exactly what his speedometer says. That IS his speed, it has been proven.

No. You did not read MY example or misunderstood. The radar is also dependant on where it observes from. If you place the device outside of the earths orbit and clock the car from there you will get a completely different speed

Originally posted by celldss:

If I say that relativism is universally false for all people at all times in all places, am I right or wrong? Again, you must read the example. To say "well, it's right for you" is a misunderstanding of what I'm saying. I'm saying it's false for EVERYONE. Is that right or wrong?

Wrong. You have no basis for even making that assumption because you haven't been anyone but yourself let alone everyone.

Originally posted by celldss:

Then, according to your relativistic standpoing, the law of noncontradiction (LNC) is both true and false at the same time, which cannot be true. And we continue dancing in circles...

No (it's like quantum mechanics) it's not true AND false at the SAME time, rather at any given point it can be either true of false, and then it depends upon the position of the observer.

Originally posted by celldss:

you can NEVER believe that anything is true, because it could be both true and false at the same time.

Yes, precisely. I understand that I may very well be wrong. Do you not?

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