Neverside

Originally posted by Abvex:

If they are terrorist, they are NOT Muslims. This is strongly forbidden in the religion.

I'm inclined to think you need to dig into the Qur'an a bit more. What we call terrorism, they call killing the infidel. It doesn't matter if the infidel (i.e. non-muslim, particularly Christians & Jews) is a man, woman, or child - civilian or not.

Consider Sura 5:33 -

"The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter,"

Keeping in mind that those who "make war" might also include civilized disagreement or discussion. Also Sura 47:4 -

"Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens..."

Again remembering that to the Muslim, "the battle" is not just a battlefield, but where ever they may choose to take it. This is why many Christian missionary villages have faced "ethnic cleansing" in Africa, not because they engaged in battle with Muslims, but because Muslim leaders brought the battle to them.

I would agree that they don't view it as terrorism, they view it as a duty, much the same way that it is a duty for the Christian to "love their enemies" and to "pray for those that persecute them" (Matt 5:44), but to say that they are not Muslim because they do "terrorist things" (i.e. killing what the rest of the world calls "innocent") is the opposite of the truth. They do what they do because they read the Qur'an and obey it.

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Last edited by Celldss, August 25th, 2005 04:14 PM (Edited 1 times)

If a muslim is a terrorist he's just following the Qu'ran.
If a christian is a terrorist he's disregarding the bible.

Isn't it great how open-minded we are.

edit:

Quote:

from http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1086.htm

Many people have been quoting the Quran out of context in an effort to show that Islam promotes violence. [...]

This is pure nonsense. [...]
I can do the same thing with the Bible.

[...]
3) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.
[...]
5) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.
[...]
7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

Context is important, of course, and many of these seeming cruelties disappear when read as such. However, this would not stop a Christian terrorist from interpreting the Bible in a manner necessary to concoct a religious justification for unspeakable horrors, as Pope Urban II did, for example, when he preached the First Crusade in 1095 or as many American preachers did when they used Leviticus to defend slavery.

Political and religious extremists have abused Islamic, Jewish, or Christian scriptures continuously throughout history.

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Last edited by vierstein, August 25th, 2005 08:51 PM (Edited 1 times)

Originally posted by Celldss:

What we call terrorism, they call killing the infidel. It doesn't matter if the infidel (i.e. non-muslim, particularly Christians & Jews) is a man, woman, or child - civilian or not.

For one, you are generalizing the entire Muslim populace. "What we call terrorism, they call killing the infidel." I'm not sure if you intended to ignore the fact that "they" are referred to as extremists. I'm sure you understand that religious texts have many interpretations, and the two verses from the Qur'an which you chose to analyze can evidently be misinterpreted into acts of terrorism. Analyzing the trend of this topic, it seems as if many have forgotten that extremists are responsible for the terrors we see in the world today, not your average Muslim.

Secondly, it does matter if the "infidel" is a woman, child, elder, civlian, etc. There are strict practices for one to follow in warfare. Consider the following --

Quote:

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not, aggressors.
(Al-Baqarah: 190)

The very concept of war in Islam is only a means of defense. Wars are not to be instigated in Islam.

The first caliph, Abu Bakr, who ruled after Prophet Muhammad, instructed the commanding chiefs in time of war as follows --

Quote:

I give you ten commandments: do not kill a woman or a child or an old person, and do not cut trees or ruin dwellings or slay a sheep but for food. Dont burn palm trees or drown them. And do not be spiteful or unjust.

Although there are certain verses which could be interpreted into commiting violent acts, the overall meaning and message of the Qur'an is of peace, non-violence, and justice. As vierstein added, all three major religions have segments in their texts which can be interpretted as condoning violent, terroristic acts. It is illogical and ignorant to single out Islam in the manner that you have.

Granted there are verses in the Qur'an which could be seen as calling for violence; there are also verses which call for peace and justice in humanity. Lets take a look at some of these --

Quote:

Whoever kills a person [unjustly], it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.
(Al-Maeda: 32)

Furthermore, exteremism is prohibited in Islam. God mandates moderation in faith and in all aspects of life when He states in the Qur'an --

Quote:

We made you to be a community of the middle way, so that (with the example of your lives) you might bear witness to the truth before all mankind.
(Al-Baqarah: 143)

In an authentic hadith, Prophet Muhammad said there is no excuse for commiting unjust acts --

Quote:

Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong to them. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong (even) if they do evil.
(Al-Tirmidhi)

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Originally posted by vierstein:

If a muslim is a terrorist he's just following the Qu'ran.
If a christian is a terrorist he's disregarding the bible.

Isn't it great how open-minded we are...

I find it interesting that instead of addressing anything that I said, you opted for the red herring by attacking Christianity. How did you put it to me previously...

"your arguments are really not valid counter-arguments but simply avoidance tactics."

------------------------------------------

Hi hydrophilic,

I do understand that texts have various interpretations, and I look forward to exploring those a bit. Your use of pronouns later in the post indicate to me that you are a Muslim, thus a few questions must be answered in order for the rest of our conversation to flow smoothly. If you wouldn't mind:

1) Please define what you believe to be a "Muslim extremist".
2) Are such extremists not really Muslim because of their actions, or are they just Muslims that are disobedient to the Qur'an (and thus Allah)?
3) Please define (from the Qur'an if possible) the ways people "wage war" against Allah.

I apologize for lacking the time to reply in detail to your post, though your response to my questions will help me reply in a more concise fashion. Thanks!

___________________

When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

Originally posted by Celldss:

I find it interesting that instead of addressing anything that I said, you opted for the red herring by attacking Christianity. How did you put it to me previously...

"your arguments are really not valid counter-arguments but simply avoidance tactics."

I'm not exactly learned of the history between you two, but because this is an open-debate, I feel I can give my opinion.

I don't believe vierstien was "attacking Christianity." He was essentially opening a door to a perspective which has not been looked into yet, as far as the flow of this debate goes. In essence, I believe that his comment gave attention to the double standard present in western culture. Additionally, is it really necessary to directly address posts preceding ones in order for this open-debate to continue? Debate is defined as: "To consider something; deliberate."

Lastly, I am a student whose fall semester will begin shortly. These last few days have been extremely busy, and I have more activities planned. When I find the time, I'll try to answer the questions you directed at me, but for the time being, I must leave them unaswered. Sorry.

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Originally posted by grut:

It's funny how one sided it seems to us when we see muslims doing all this stuff. But in reality, there are evil people everywhere. Haha for example, who let Pat Robertson's crazy *** on TV? Is it a form of terrorism to call for the assassination of the Venezuelan president on your TV network?

That was pretty stupid on his part and the media isnt letting him forget it either.

And yes there is evil people everywhere. It matters not race, creed nor gender. Some people will use what ever excuse they choose to hurt another for not seeing things their way. Religion & politics are the most predominate.

In the case in topic is was pure ignorance on the kids part and total manipulation on those that brainwashed them(terrorist). Obviously these kids had no moral or ethical code which is sad because their parents are in total shock as they thought they had set their children on the right paths in life.

As for the other posted comments: I read them. Based on the sources and the futile paths that they lead too I wont even comment.

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If it can't be repeated, don't say it.

all muslims are brainwashed in my opinion! They are taught it from birth so they believe in it all their lives. I cant believe people can believe something like allah especially give their lives to him when they cant be sure he exists! If somebody had seen the guy then ye maybe its possible. And the stupid thing where your suppsoed to get loads of naked women and sexual pleasures when u take your life WHAT A LOAD OF BULL! just do it while ur on earth mateys!

Religion = war

ad dont try coming back at me with loads of christian things cos i dont give a f*** about christianity either. Maybe there is a god.. cant every1 call him what they like? and not fight about it, about who is right. **** the books that come with the religion also because nobody knows who wrote them. Just have your own beliefs then there would be no war and violence.!

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Last edited by MPFreestyle, August 27th, 2005 01:21 AM (Edited 2 times)

there would still be war & violence MPFreestyle, unfortunately. sad but true. it's just that religion & politics are the worldwide causes for it. on a local level, differences of opinion/conflicts of interest is the main reason. humanity just doesnt agree with itself...lol

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If it can't be repeated, don't say it.

This may be way of topic but it is weird how London part of the UK gets terrorised by "whoever" I do not want to put a religion on it for example Muslim as I dont know enough about it but......

Northern Ireland part of the UK was terrorised by a number of groups mainly the IRA for over 30 years and there was not even half of what was done for 7 days worth in London.

I do not suppose any form of terrorism. Infact I condemn it completely. It just shows though!

_ngx

Last edited by nographics, September 14th, 2005 02:04 PM (Edited 1 times)

This may be alittle off topic, but I sick of people making everything out to be a racial issue. It has gotten on my last nerve. Not only people form the middle east practice terrorism. I think that it is high ignorant on your part to stereotype people based on the color of their skin. That is what this world seems to be coming to. It seems that from the war to the hurricane evacuees everything can be turned into the fact that it is because of the color of someones skin that makes them act certain ways, and do certain things. PLEASE, stop being niave and stupid. Did anyone stop to think that maybe it could be the character of the person and not the color of there skin? There will always be segregation and stereotypes because of ignorant people like you.