Neverside

[quote=Jewels]

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I don't know the answer to that, but I do know that homosexuals don't choose their attractions, in much the same way heterosexuals don't either.

Then you simply assuming what you are trying to prove, that homosexuality is not a choice. I am not attempting to be rude Jewels; I am simply pointing out an error in your thinking.

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You linked to NARTH, so I gave a little background information on that organisation. It's relevant if you don't wish to be biased.

That is incorrect. An organization (or individual) can be as biased as they wish, so long as their facts are in order. Much of NARTH's well documented information counters the typical, politically correct jargon that comes from organizations such as the APA.

___________________

When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

Originally posted by Celldss:

Then you simply assuming what you are trying to prove, that homosexuality is not a choice. I am not attempting to be rude Jewels; I am simply pointing out an error in your thinking.

Why do I assume the things I do? Everyone I know didn't choose be heterosexual or homosexual. There's no scientific proof to back any of these claims up, so I'm simply using basic logic; going by what people say about themselves. There's no way I can prove anything about what anyone thinks since I'm not them. You can call it an error in my thinking if you want, but this isn't some normal argument with me using circular reasoning.

Originally posted by Celldss:

That is incorrect. An organization (or individual) can be as biased as they wish, so long as their facts are in order. Much of NARTH's well documented information counters the typical, politically correct jargon that comes from organizations such as the APA.

It may be "typical politcally correct jargon" but that doesn't mean it's not true. I don't agree with the so-called "facts" provided by NARTH. I'm far more convinced by what I've read elsewhere, and I've read enough about Nicolosi to dismiss him too. Of course NARTH can be as biased as they want to be (that wasn't my point), but that doesn't mean this discussion should be biased towards NARTH.

If it isn't a choice...and it isn't genetic... What does that leave?

Humans are designed to continue to survive, hence why homosexuality is a choice (as it doesn't let the human race continue to survive). By choice I don't necessarily mean "I woke up and designed to like people of my own gender", I think it is more of a subconcious thing.

I'm saying that by default, humans are heterosexuals. It may be their environment or personal experiences that makes gays choose to be gay. It might be something else. Let me analogize this:

If I build a wall out of bricks, I can leave it brick coloured, or I can paint it. Leaving it brick coloured is like heterosexuality, and painting it is like homosexuality. I could either leave it like it is, and therefore not make a choice as such, or I can paint it, which changes it, and was a choice.

Originally posted by pingu:

If it isn't a choice...and it isn't genetic... What does that leave?

A combination of biological and environmental factors. I'm sure you've heard about the theory of hormones in the womb affecting the unborn foetus; that hasn't got anything to do with genetics.

Originally posted by pingu:

Humans are designed to continue to survive, hence why homosexuality is a choice (as it doesn't let the human race continue to survive).

I still don't understand how you're linking the two statements. Humans are designed to survive. Yes that's true. Hence homosexuality is a choice? I don't see how choice comes into the design of humans.

Originally posted by pingu:

By choice I don't necessarily mean "I woke up and designed to like people of my own gender", I think it is more of a subconcious thing.

You can choose to believe that I guess, although that's all you have to go on.

Originally posted by pingu:

I'm saying that by default, humans are heterosexuals. It may be their environment or personal experiences that makes gays choose to be gay. It might be something else. Let me analogize this:

If I build a wall out of bricks, I can leave it brick coloured, or I can paint it. Leaving it brick coloured is like heterosexuality, and painting it is like homosexuality. I could either leave it like it is, and therefore not make a choice as such, or I can paint it, which changes it, and was a choice.

That analogy doesn't work since choosing to paint the bricks is a direct choice. That's nothing like people "choosing" to become homosexual (if you're talking about it as a subconscious choice). While I don't dismiss the fact that there are possible environmental factors involved, they alone wouldn't cause a person to "choose" to be gay. As I understand it, homosexuals realise that they're homosexual at some stage in their life.

Let me ask you something Jewels...would you please define homosexuality?

___________________

When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

Pingu... you are ridiculous. I did not choose to be gay. I didn't choose. It wasn't something up to me! I didn't get to check a little box before I was born on what sexuality I wanted to be. You didn't choose to be straight. Did you? When did I make this choice. Give me a time and date and maybe I will believe you. You seem to know so much about me. And while you are at it, how about telling me the time and date of my boyfriends choice! How about the whole gay population! It is amazing a straight man can know so much about us!

You say you "know" that I made a choice because I can't have a baby with another man. So does that mean a straight person who can't have children for some reason is "unnatural" also? Does that mean that someone who doesn't want kids in "unnatural"?

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I chose to be gay because running away from homophobes keeps my weight down.

Originally posted by Celldss:

Let me ask you something Jewels...would you please define homosexuality?

Typically same-sex attraction (thats last longer than the general phase period common amongst teenagers, more commonly females). It could involve sex, but it's not really about that since you can get celibate homosexuals or homosexual virgins and other variations. That's also the reason why Leviticus doesn't condemn homosexuality, or any other bible verse for that matter except possibly Romans 1 (where it is the only place which could possibly pertain to homosexuality as a whole).

So, just to restate, you believe that homosexuality is simply being attracted to the same gender. Correct? Would I also be correct in assuming that you believe a homosexual to be one who is simply attracted to the same gender?

___________________

When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

Originally posted by Celldss:

So, just to restate, you believe that homosexuality is simply being attracted to the same gender. Correct? Would I also be correct in assuming that you believe a homosexual to be one who is simply attracted to the same gender?

A heterosexual is one who is simply attracted to the opposite gender, and it's the same for homosexuals and bisexuals too. Well I (and the vast majority of people) think that way. No action is required.

i can not beleive some of the crap being spewed by people here. Now i may not have read the whole thing, but ive read enough. You people (some) seem to treat gays as inhuman. This is bordering Nazi doctrine, you do realise that. I can see no logical argument for saying that they are a mistake, a genetic plauge that must be whipped out or ignored. What causes homosexuality nobody can say for certain, so dont pretend that you can. The chemistry in the brain is too complex for us to simply read it like a book. One thing we do know is, there are those that are born gay. This idea thats its some lifestyle choice that people make to piss homophobes like you guys off is absurd. And even if it is, what right is it of yours to judge? Why should we make a distinction between this genetic difference (if that is indeed what it is) and any other of millions, ie different races, blue eyes, short people etc. I was alarmed and disgusted to read that one of you would even consider disowning a friend if it was revealed that he was gay. You guys are living in your own repressed little worlds, and its pathetic. thats all it is. You hide behind your religious dogma which has no bearing on any scientific truths concerning this thus far, and except us to swallow it. Well i dont buy it. I dont buy into the idea that homosexuals should be classed as not human, or not like us. They are exactly like us, what they feel and what they want is irrelevent. Who decides whats naturual? You? Me? Scientists? Scientologists? no. Bringing God into this makes it infinitely more complicated so i wont, for now. You people must have more faith in the world and less in yourselves, for you obviously dont deserve it. Whatever the cause of homosexuality in people it has a reason, like all things. To say that they are doomed to die because they are less is absurd. You cannot address this issue like some biblical act of God, destroying the infidels.

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I'm saying that by default, humans are heterosexuals. It may be their environment or personal experiences that makes gays choose to be gay. It might be something else.

how on earth could you possibly prove that? Your ignorance has lead you to not beleive any testimonials from gay people themselves. What reason have they to lie? If they say theyve always been gay then just accept it. I find it stupid that people pass or attempt to pass laws on anything as subjective as love anyway. Its just another level of institutionalisation.

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If I build a wall out of bricks, I can leave it brick coloured, or I can paint it. Leaving it brick coloured is like heterosexuality, and painting it is like homosexuality. I could either leave it like it is, and therefore not make a choice as such, or I can paint it, which changes it, and was a choice.

im sorry but thats the stupidest thing ive ever heard. did you know the default position for a fetus is female, and then certain hormones are released to make the outcome a baby. Does that mean that all males are 'posers' just trying to deny that we have been fundamentally changed from our intended design?

Bah, what good is it.

Last edited by FunkyDwarf, October 6th, 2005 06:43 AM (Edited 1 times)