Neverside

Quote:

Originally posted by Cweb
Satan is in controll of the non-saved world.

By non-saved, I assume you mean everybody who isn't christian? I apologize if I am wrong in that assumption, but that statement is extremely closed minded. I know, you believe your religion is the one and only, but so does everybody else, so don't go around saying that everyone who isnt christian is rules by Satan, thats just... stupid.

Quote:

Originally posted by Speed
I think that's agnostic or something like that. You beleive in a higher being but have no religion.

No, agnostic is when you do not know whether or not there is a god, so you refuse to commit your belief either way

Quote:

Originally posted by Heri
Whether you believe in God or not, our founding fathers did; they founded the country, they founded our pledge.

are you going to have Disney remove the scene with the Catholic church in it just because your not a Catholic?

As adkov just posted, the founding fathers had absolutely nothing to do with the pledge. The pledge wasn't even implimented until much later after it was written. Even my dad remembers when they first started saying 'Under God' in the pledge in school, so if it was removed, it would actually be changing it back to the way it originally was. It was added to somehow protect us from the 'godless communist heathens'

About the catholic church thing: Just because somebody is offended that the concept of God is uncluded in something that is endorsed by the government, in no way implies that they will be offended when they see something relating to religion in other aspects of their life.

I personally think the pledge should just be removed, done away with. I see no reason for it at all, other than an attempt to try and imprint a sense of patriotism of children. Patriotism should come from experiences in life, rather than being forced to recite a pledge. I'm just speaking for myself here, but I never saw saying the pledge as anything but a hassle through gradeschool.

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Last edited by Down, October 24th, 2003 11:31 PM (Edited 1 times)

i do refuse to stand for the pledge and at my grad cerimony i didn't stand for the national anthem. at the time i was much less than pround of the USA, and was not going to show pride for any reason.

seeing a church in a movie is different than children being forced to saying that they admit that their country is ruled by God.

And I can clearly acknowledge this country's history without reciting it everyday as if i believed in God myself

and while were at it we should just put the ten commandments everywhere because this is a chistian nation and when it says you shall have no other god before me, we'll pretend this was a quote from the christian bible and that it referes to ANY god...

also if i remember i cross out god on paper currency and put in Gravity, because i trust in that, and i have the freedom to express myself.

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Last edited by lain13ego, October 25th, 2003 07:38 AM (Edited 1 times)

Just a thought... but how many smaller children (let's say, under 10) do you think are actually thinking about what they're saying? Isn't it more likely that they're just saying it... to say it?

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I believe that it should be left alone - however *down is right*the original "pledge" did not have that phrase. It was put in sometime in the 1950's (I think 57) to show superiority over the communists who did not believe.

Regardless - I dont think religion should be forced on anyone, but I think that if you are going to live in my country, enjoy the fruits of what ppl before us have built, then you should respect what is here, and how we achieved it. If we have a monument depicting something that you dont agree with, then look away. I dont mind if the Arab children sing songs to Allah or the Asian ppl say prayer to Buddha or the Indian ppl to a Hindu god. I wouldnt take that away from them - this country stands on the fact that we wanted to worship whatever diety we wanted to without being subject to persecution. Back then it was (and still is) God. Now we have a plethora of ppls and religions that ask for relief from religious persecution in their country. I welcome them with open arms and say worship whatever diety you wish, but to ask that a phrase be removed from the pledge is like me asking that the buddhists or the jewish folk not be allowed to have a temple or anything not christian in the public view.

to me atheists or agnostics fit in there too - if you dont like it..dont listen or remove yourself. If I dont like what others say or teach then I leave. Its that simple to me

Before someone says something about forcing the kids to say the pledge, refer to the forcing religion statement above. That I would change.

*oops sorry down I missed your post somehow or I wouldnt have repeated the "original pledge" part - dang and I thought I knew something cool *

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Last edited by Samson, October 26th, 2003 12:32 AM (Edited 1 times)

I didn't mean to say they "founded our pledge". What I really meant to say by that statment is that they would have approved of it.

Whether a movie be about fantacy or real life, that isn't the point. We are talking about a pledge here, and I was saying that if you complain about our pledge, it's suprising you don't complain about everything else under the sun related to America's Godly heritage (which, in my opionion, some of you already do). If you don't believe in God, just take your hand off your heart when you come to that part of the pledge or just don't say it.

Why haven't any of you complained about the court system that makes you pledge on the Bible "so help me God"?

How many people here are on trial every day?

-G

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"I once knew a man who said death smiles at us all;
All a man can do is smile back."

-Gladiator

Hopefully none. lol

But think about it... from many of your point of views, an anthiest could lie all he wanted to in court after taking that pledge because he doesn't believe in God and the Bible, which is what he swore on...

Quote:

Originally posted by GoM
How many people here are on trial every day?

Well GoM, then why is everybody complaining about the Ten Commandments in the courtrooms? :confused:

*shrugs*

I dunno...I'm glad I'm not American, but I go both ways....on one hand, people shouldn't be forced to do anything. But that's idealist. On the other hand, it;s just a couple words, it's the meaning that you feel that counts over the words.

*exits the thread*

-G

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"I once knew a man who said death smiles at us all;
All a man can do is smile back."

-Gladiator

I dunno either, lol.

I'm gonna do what your doing... *exits the thread*

Quote:

Originally posted by Heri
Why haven't any of you complained about the court system that makes you pledge on the Bible "so help me God"?

For the most part, the right hand on the Bible is a product of hollywood. There are some courts that do practice that, but the majority of court rooms in the US do not.

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