Neverside

Originally posted by Nykoelle:

Its also home to facebook, where I keep in touch with friends and whatnot.

In my case I've noticed I use the internet much more as a tool to supplement real-life stuff, like with Facebook, and less as a social outlet in itself: I haven't joined any new internet "communities" since longer than I can remember.

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ah, the good ol' days of vogonpoet and fredmv(?)... they were the true masters

Yeah we had a few outstanding contributors. And I think this echoes what nertman said, it wasn't the tutorials, it was the community.

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The Internet as a whole is maturing.

That's true, it's always been an evolving medium. But looking at a site like 4chan, I'm not sure if the concept of maturity would really apply.

But even mainstream sites like Digg suffer from a kind of ADD-style of staccato bursts of content. Or, look at RSS. Sometimes I look at my feeds of 100s of entries and think, "what am I gaining from this?"

I mean, not only is it inevitably impossible to keep up with *everything* that's going on on *all* of your favourite blogs, but at the end of the day, you're not more up to date about anything at all.

Which is why I find myself using the web as a tool to get stuff done, and then go on with my day.

I guess I've gone from the curious experimenter, fiddling with the PHP and the HTML and actually *making* things in photoshop, to the old, cranky, "I just want it to work and move on".

I first started twiddling with websites around 1999 or so. Never got good at anything other than HTML, to be honest. I have tables mastered. But that kind of website making is history.

About a year ago I signed up to DreamHost and received a free domain. Instantly made a Wonchi site and it is currently coded in HTML. I remember at the time thinking that I needed to try and learn CSS because I wasn't able to do the things I wanted to do in tables. And the wonchi.com site is simple.

Here recently my friend and I are starting up a webcomic and I am doing the site. I fell back on my roots and went to do it in html and tables. It didn't happen. Not only can things just not work with HTML and tables like they used to(IE days) but you can't find any support really on the web for it. You know what you can find support on that you couldn't in abundance three-four years ago?

CSS. I finally learned to code a site using CSS the other week. About every site I go to is done in CSS. Most sites are gearing towards that Web 2.0 look. Which works for me because I love pleasant and simple things.

Originally posted by nano:

Back in the days of TutorialForums, tutorials were the big thing, everyone was learning how to make orbs and tentacles in photoshop, splash pages were in, and abstract 3d art was the rage. Pixel fonts were cool. People got excited when 2advanced released a new design. Robouk was everyone's hero. And nobody liked the Spoontards (wait, I guess some things haven't changed.)

This is just internet trends and fads to me. Things are always going to change. I think emoticons are out the door, but who knows. I suppose the fad is Web 2.0 now. This could easily change in 2010 to something else.

Originally posted by nano:

In another thread someone brought up the point that the reason TutorialForums had to evolve was that tutorials were no longer representative of what people were looking for. So if we are to get this community up to date, what kind of approach is relevant today?

I believe that TF just would've kept evolving. There were so many people on and each of those people are learning every day. It'd be just like a snake shedding it's skin. Eventually it'll leave the dead skin behind and come out glossy. I don't believe TF would've become outdated as a site. Maybe some of the content and design (if not updated) but the forum posts would be fresh.

As a new community(whatever we become) it is obvious that there is going to have to be a Web 2.0 look. If this next reincarnation lasts for a few years then maybe some of the older content that isn't considered to be "hot" at the time should be archived and presented as a "Flashback".

Was going to say more but can't gather my thoughts as some friends are over making a ruckus. Guess that is my two cents.

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Why are we friends? Srsly...

It needs more cowbell.

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I think the state of the Internet has just gotten better now that 4chan got hacked.

And I don't think Rider has actually accomplished anything, except useless "twiddling"..

Originally posted by bleedwithme:

And I don't think Rider has actually accomplished anything, except useless "twiddling"..

I accomplished at making you butthurt.

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Why are we friends? Srsly...

i was here back in the TF days - i was a mod for the PSP forums actually... it was great - i really loved this place but i grew away from it once i got too busy on personal projects... I don't know why but this morning i googled xtacide just to see all the sites ive signed up for... this came up and i was like wowwww.... Glad to see the community still exists - but i highly doubt that it will ever be what it was (for those who were here during TF days know).... But thats off topic...

Anyways, the web today seems a bit more established - which can be good or can be bad... As far as development goes, it seems some companies took the best route early on and are now monopolizing on it.. I personally enjoy the capabilities we have today - the more i learn with flash the more eager I am to learn more, but I did enjoy the old days when everything was being discovered - now it just seems techniques are being created - not a whole new invention of design... It's been a while since a website lit my eyes up in amazement - I still see VERY VERY impressive work - but i remember seeing 2advanced and my jaw literally dropped. Now, it's like yea - thats been done before.. this is just a different concept... I guess it has its benefits and its downfalls... To say tutorials aren't very popular today is a broad perspective.. I think developers and people learning new languages/programs appreciate them very much... There usually isn't a single thing i can't find help on when googleing problems... and that, is awesome...

Originally posted by XtaCide:

To say tutorials aren't very popular today is a broad perspective.. I think developers and people learning new languages/programs appreciate them very much... There usually isn't a single thing i can't find help on when googleing problems... and that, is awesome...

As a digital artist (3D, digital painting, graphic design), and by my familiarity with multiple programming languages, I can say first hand that I have very little use for tutorials anymore. When it comes to digital art, I prefer articles that explain basic technique, and take it from there on my own. I find step-by-step tutorials to be very detrimental to developing skill and personal techniques, not to mention the fact that most step-by-step tutorials cannot be applied to real world projects. As far as programming is concerned, whether it be server, client, or compiled, I find real world code in real world applications to be far more instructive then any tutorial can be, which is yet another reason for my strong support of open source applications.

The nuking of Tutorial Forums / Tutorial Central / Neverside was inevitable, because tutorials are not in demand like they once were. Fewer newcomers are on the scene, as things are now starting to stabilize. Overall there's more experience now, and newcomers have better, more mature resources at their disposal.

The once influential drive-by tutorial sites are now starting to feel their age; people aren't going for that type of garbage anymore. In order for the upcoming re-launch of the re-named Neverside to be successful, Dave will have to take the necessary steps to create something more appealing and unique, and will have to target a more mature and experienced audience. Dave must not rely on the mass emailing of existing community members to get the growth of the community back on track.

Omg, I just visited thesuperist!!! That is so awesome!

And Heri, newcomers may have more tools at their disposal as far as design/development goes, but newbies still don't know how to do a lot of things, hence the need for tutorials. Obviously once you've reached a point where you no longer need tutorials, you find nothing useful, just more of the same thing, and at that point, you can either move on and choose to further your hobby/career, or start teaching others what you know. It's a cycle I'm glad exists, however, those teachers are becoming more scarce.

I don't think tutorials are dead, or advanced articles are more important. I think they are equally important, and we should cater to the beginner, all the way to the advanced user, that way the community will be stronger as a whole, and people will remember where they started out at.

When you have tons of knowledge about a thing such as web design, what is there to do but to use that knowledge? If I was a design guru, I would want to share my knowledge the best way I knew how, on top of whatever career I would be pursuing. Making tutorials or articles for people to follow, allows them to advance their knowledge, and also allows you to say that you can add things to your own portfolio, it shows you know how to lead instead of follow. And that is all in the design tutorial process. People usually start by seeing something cool, and even in the very beginning, in the back of their minds they want to make something they can say is their own creation, to become a leader in their own mind. Right now, they're just following instructions on how to learn some of the basics of programming or graphics. Once they get used to that, they can start slowly shifting into that mode where they are comfortable using whatever program/language to develop their own projects and designs.

Without the tutorials, we will only cater to the 1337, the advanced user, who will likely not stick with one single community.

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Another thing about the web. People are still getting used to it, despite how long it's been available. It's still growing, and will always continue to grow, however, I do not believe that just because we have things like web 2.0, ajax, etc, that we cannot still create those technical type designs that used to flood the Tutorial Forums. Trends come and go, but if you stay with a design style you like, something that caught your eye and made you want to design, that sort of sticks, and you never forget about it. They say that trends are reused every decade or so. The Yo-yo for example. Anyone remember the butterfly yo-yo's that came out probably 5+ years ago, or started becoming really popular? Well, the yo-yo has existed for probably thousands of years, but as far as trends go, it has come and gone, and come again, and repeat that process.

I'm not saying that those old designs were great by any means, but for what was available at the time, sites like 2advanced studios or pixelranger or even spoono were great inspirations, and I find myself constantly going back to the v2 designs, or the old portfolio sites that I originally found inspiration, and nothing's changed...

Pixelranger remains to be my favorite site: http://www.shanemielke.com/projects/pr/
And I still love the v3 of 2advanced: http://v3.2a-archive.com/

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Last edited by HelloMoto, December 20th, 2007 06:34 PM (Edited 1 times)

Good points HelloMoto, but you're basically confirming what I'm saying. Those like myself who are highly experienced in the aforementioned fields of expertise are either making a career of it or, like myself, have the ambition to turn it into a career. Those who are at the top of their field in experience and creativity are not going to be making glass orb tutorials. They have better things to do with their knowledge. So what happens? Those who make such things a hobby or past time start pouring out their wealth of knowledge, or lack thereof, and start writing their little <? echo "this is some text"; ?> tutorials. It's blind leading the blind. Someone learns something basic and passes it off as advanced learning. Simply put, it's limited knowledge going around in circles.

Only those who have the passion to advance their knowledge and are willing to fly on the wings of determination will ever break out of that vicious cycle. Truly experienced individuals no longer go for the garbage so many of us were once accustomed to. You won't see someone with real experience taking a visit to pixel2life or good-tutorials, anymore. Yes, those sites still thrive - n00bs love them. But novices who have a true desire to learn more follow those with more experience, and such people won't be visiting those sites.

Sites like pixel2life and good-tutorials don't progress and mature into a mass of knowledge and information, because they rely on other sites for their content. It's like Digg or Slashdot. The information on those sites never grows, ever. The knowledge never builds, it never matures, it never cultures. It's dynamic content with a short life span. Bingo, the typical 2003 era tutorial site described in a nutshell. They grow, but they don't mature.

Last edited by Heri, December 22nd, 2007 03:28 AM (Edited 1 times)

I agree somewhat. Who says that the experienced users today are only going to write tutorials on glass orbs? I think there should be tutorials for beginners, intermediate, as well as advanced people, so as to cater to everyone's need, as opposed to just the advanced user, because then, the beginner will be like WTH? Why is all this st00f confusing?

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