Neverside

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If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having.

Mr. Lewis isn't thinking deep enough, his view is very "worldly" And by that I mean he is simply thinking just how things are here on Earth. God has the power to make not just good and evil but even a third or forth or fifth "side". Also note in heaven I am told that that everyone is good and there is nothing but praise and love for God, so, I ask you how much dose God like the idea of us being "robots" and how can it be that in heaven there can be no evil but there can be free will; OR do we have no freewill in heaven. Which really starts to make one try to run around in circles to cover their other arguments.

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A world of automata-of creatures that worked like machines-would hardly be worth creating.

That?s an opinion though, a human opinion, stop putting your opinions on God Lewis...

Ok now back on topic lol.

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Aah...one does not need to know what one is doing in order to do it. Just because Adam and Eve did not have "knowledge of Good and Evil" does not mean that they could not do good or evil; in fact, the very nature of free will implies that they could do both. Either choose to love God, or not to love God...

Correct, but would you punish your child if they did something wrong but didn't know it was wrong? I'm sure most don't; we tell them that it is wrong and not to do it again (so now they know its "evil" or "bad"), so now if they do it again you punish them because they did wrong and they knew better.

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The serpent is merely an outside circumstance: right and wrong is not depandent on circumstances (so we hold). Therefore, they are held accountable for it. You see, the definition of sin is rebellion against God. And the very nature of God is absolute holiness. If God were to "let off" sin, he would be violating his nature.

Hate to say this, but you make it sound like God cant choose his own nature. But I certainly understand what your saying and it makes sense; God has set down some ground rules on what is and what isn't and he doesn?t like them being broken, totally understood. Note: just don?t conclude that God couldn't change his mind (I've seen some people try to argue this).

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Adam and Eve were tempted to be "like God," that is, to put themselves on an equal standing with him. This is THE major no-no. It's what all sin stems from: our thinking that we can do a better job at running our lives than God can.

Right right but like I said before how did they know that was a major no no? I mean we know now! lol but I've never seen anything that stated Adam and Eve did.

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And I wouldn't be too sure that the "snake" gets off too easy there, either: "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers;he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." Doesn't sound too pleasent to me Wink

Ha ha, this is a mater of opinion really; but I think that sounds like it's a deal that hurts both the snake and the human. (just got a question) Why would God punish the snake in this way if the snake was supposedly the devil?

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Sorry if that was little more than a random mishmash of thoughts: if you aren't satisfied please don't hesitate to challenge anything. I'm writing this really quickly, and I'm sorta tired, so I may not be explaining things as clearly as I'd like. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'm not. Well, see what you can do with this, and I'll see how awake I am tomorrow.

Oh trust me I do the same thing quite often, and if I?m not satisfied you can bet your buttons I'll challenge it

Great discussion so far, I miss nice civil discussions such as this; I look forward to your reply.

___________________

People without self-doubt scare me.
The world is my country, science is my religion. - Christiaan Huygens
“Don’t take refuge in the false security of consensus.”

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Last edited by Tool, January 12th, 2006 06:54 AM (Edited 1 times)

""Hate to say this, but you make it sound like God cant choose his own nature. But I certainly understand what your saying and it makes sense; God has set down some ground rules on what is and what isn't and he doesn?t like them being broken, totally understood. Note: just don?t conclude that God couldn't change his mind (I've seen some people try to argue this).""

This here would prove that God is not all-knowing. Changing his mind to fix something just so he's right sounds like a God who doubts himself. He therefore couldn't change his mind in anything that would shake the belief foundation he has built underneath himself. Would you want to follow someone who wasn't sure about what might happen? I wouldn't. Also, you
stated that

""""Correct, but would you punish your child if they did something wrong but didn't know it was wrong? I'm sure most don't; we tell them that it is wrong and not to do it again (so now they know its "evil" or "bad"), so now if they do it again you punish them because they did wrong and they knew better."""""

I would punish mine off the back. That teaches them not to do it again. A warning to a young child might not mean much if there are no immediate ramifications. A simple telling wouldn't do. But in your view, God punished us right off the back even though he told us what not to do. What happened to that warning? If we had known that we would die as a result of eating that fruit, do you think we would have touched it? I don't think so. God, as some stated, KNEW what we would do. He had everything predetermined. It's as if he wanted to play around with us, amuse himself to see what our choice would be if we were tempted. He should have made us immune to all negative temptations. That would have saved us a great deal of agony.

So in conclusion, God toyed with us in the beginning and now seeks to destroy something that he himself helped create.

___________________

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Tortustudios.com - In Development. Expected Release: Summer 2006.( You can visit it now)

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This here would prove that God is not all-knowing. Changing his mind to fix something just so he's right sounds like a God who doubts himself. He therefore couldn't change his mind in anything that would shake the belief foundation he has built underneath himself. Would you want to follow someone who wasn't sure about what might happen? I wouldn't. Also, you
stated that

No it wouldn't (I never said God had to change his mind to fix something anyway) if he did want to fix something he very could or could not do so. Just because you know something needs to be fixed and you know how to fix it dosen't mean you just will or wont.

It dosen't even have to do with fixing things either, God could just feel like chaning his mind for no good reason or for a very good reason, say for example: God now comes down and whipes out Satan (which it says will happen in the Bible) and all the saved live happily ever after (kind of). Thats an example of God chaning his mind, or we could go back and look at the flood story (which dose, I think, prove that the Bible is just writen by men with plenty of ilogical fallisies within it) where God is sorry for flooding the Earth and vows never to do it again; that proves that God isn't all knowing, which then I agree.

We all follow people who arn't sure of what will or wont happen; they just think they're sure.

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I would punish mine off the back. That teaches them not to do it again. A warning to a young child might not mean much if there are no immediate ramifications. A simple telling wouldn't do.

Well I guess I was wrong in saying that we should have just gotten off with a warning, because thats just my opnion. And yes a simple telling wont do it I know that i've got two youngher siblings, but when you warn someone you lagitimize your punishments, because they knew better and now that we are in "after" "the fall" we do know good and evil (assuming the Bible is true) and the complication of understanding whether a source is or isn't good is now gone.

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I don't think so. God, as some stated, KNEW what we would do. He had everything predetermined. It's as if he wanted to play around with us, amuse himself to see what our choice would be if we were tempted. He should have made us immune to all negative temptations. That would have saved us a great deal of agony.

So in conclusion, God toyed with us in the beginning and now seeks to destroy something that he himself helped create.

Lol yeah it sounds like it, good thing it's probably all just foke lore.

___________________

People without self-doubt scare me.
The world is my country, science is my religion. - Christiaan Huygens
“Don’t take refuge in the false security of consensus.”

Home||Truth|Love

Wow, there is way too much to answer in one post here, so I'll do my best for now. And if everyone doesn't mind, I'll go in chronological order .

Originally posted by kidd175:

You said that the snake was punished, though is seems as if GOD is still punishing Adam and Eve in this excerpt of your post:

""And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.""

It seems as if the snake is to harm Adam and Eve.

I know the snake's not really the point of the debate, but I'll talk about it anyway. This came up in one of Tool's posts, too.
This passage, Genesis 3:15, is largely taken as metaphor. As we have seen earlier, Satan takes the form of a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve. Therefore, we could assume that God is talking to Satan in this passage.
The most popular interpretation of this passage that I have heard (okay, the only one, but there might be more out there), and the one that I accept, is that God is talking about Christ here. Let's look at the passage.
In the first half of the passage, God says:
"And I will put emnity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and yours."
Christ is most definitly the offspring of Adam and Eve, you can find the geneology from Adam to Noah in Genesis 5, the geneology of Shem (one of Noah's sons) to Abraham in Genesis 11, and the geneology from Abraham to Christ in the first chapter of Matthew. So, we can see that there was emnity between Christ and Satan, and between those he called the childern of the Devil (John 8:42-45).
In the second half he continues,
"he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."
This passage is taken to refer to the crucifixion, when Satan "strikes the heel" of Christ, but when Christ really "crushed the head" of the devil, by taking away his claim to the human race.

I'm not sure if the first half of the punishment of the snake (Genesis 3:14) would be taken in the same way, or if it could be applied in the same way. I suppose you could see it either way.

Originally posted by kidd175:

How can we let God run our lives if we have free will to do with what we want? This is implying, of course, that we give ourselves to God to do with as he wants. If that is the case, then some of the "good" people could be turned to do "evil." Hence, we still give up free will in order to achieve an "all powerful" handling, still steming sin into the equation, since we are still trying to be on a level playing field with God.

The point is, we have the free will to submit to God or not. We have the freedom to follow his commands, and the freedom not to. And we have the freedom to change our minds, too. In Romans 12:1, Paul urges us to "Offer (our) bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God." Yet, as Rick Warren points out in The Purpose Driven Life, "The problem with a living sacrifice is that is can crawl off the altar." (pg. 83) Surrender is not viewed as a one-time event, but rather as something that we must do continuously. Therefore, we must daily choose to obey God.

I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand the second part of your post. "Good" people can do evil, or course, as "bad" people can do good. And either can change into the other, just not by themselves, but via Satan or God, respectively. And if by "we are still trying to be on a level playing field with God" you mean that we are trying to be equal to God, that's about as far away from the truth as you could possibly get. That's what started this whole fiasco. . By surrendering to God, we are aknowledging His superiority.

Well, that's it for now. I'll try to say more later, as I finally have some time on my hands. (Yay weekends!)
-Coriakin

___________________

Love is the movement - Switchfoot

Hi Tool.

Been a while - nice to see you're still around and still asking good questions:

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Why were Adam and Eve cursed for eating from the Tree when they were duped Satan in the form of the serpent? If they didn't yet have the "knowledge of good and evil", why would God punish them for being tricked?

To directly answer the question, Adam & Eve (but more precisely, Adam) was held responsible for his actions because knowledge of good & evil is not required for obedience. Period. For instance, my son does not have to understand why I'm telling him to do something, he just needs to do it, and the understanding will come later.

Also, the question is founded upon a false premise, that they were "tricked". Adam wasn't tricked - he blamed Eve. Eve claimed to be "deceived", yet God had given them perfectly clear instruction. The simple truth is that she wanted to disobey (temptation), and she eventually yielded to it. Yet the temptation to sin is not sin in and of itself. Sin is first conceived in the rebellion of the heart - the moment Eve decided to disobey.

Free will has been hashed out multiple times here, so I think I'll refrain from getting involved in that one, but I hope my response suffices in your mind.

Take care!

___________________

When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

Originally posted by Tool:

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If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having.

Mr. Lewis isn't thinking deep enough, his view is very "worldly" And by that I mean he is simply thinking just how things are here on Earth. God has the power to make not just good and evil but even a third or forth or fifth "side". Also note in heaven I am told that that everyone is good and there is nothing but praise and love for God, so, I ask you how much dose God like the idea of us being "robots" and how can it be that in heaven there can be no evil but there can be free will; OR do we have no freewill in heaven. Which really starts to make one try to run around in circles to cover their other arguments.

True, God could make a third or fourth "side" to the matter. However, the universe that we inhabit does not allow for the possibility of more than two: with God, or without God. Just as God is outside the spatio-temporal restrictions of our universe, so he may very well be outside this one. However, the universe he created works on space-time, and it also works on a with God/without God system. Nothing in our Universe is outside space-time; anything that is is said to be outside of the universe entirely. Likewise, nothing outside of our universe is niether with God nor without Him. As Jesus said: "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters." (Matthew 12:30, NIV)

As to heaven, I think that whenever the details of the subject are brought up, things get rather sticky. Quite frankly, we are not told all that much about it. We can construct elaborate theories, or course, but we must be ready to discard them if they prove irrational. My personal theory about this is that we will no longer have the desire to do evil in Heaven, as the Devil and his cohorts will be locked up. Adam and Eve did not sin, after all, until they were tempted. But, that's only my theory.

Originally posted by Tool:

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A world of automata-of creatures that worked like machines-would hardly be worth creating.

That?s an opinion though, a human opinion, stop putting your opinions on God Lewis...

I agree: this is an opinion. However, I believe that Mr. Lewis is justified in infering this to be the opinion of God also, as that is quite obviously the way the universe is constructed. And if God is omnipotent, than he obviously made the universe the way He intended it to be.

___________________

Love is the movement - Switchfoot

Last edited by Coriakin, January 15th, 2006 06:36 AM (Edited 1 times)

Ah Celldss, I was afraid you were gone; glad to see you're not.

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To directly answer the question, Adam & Eve (but more precisely, Adam) was held responsible for his actions because knowledge of good & evil is not required for obedience. Period. For instance, my son does not have to understand why I'm telling him to do something, he just needs to do it, and the understanding will come later.

If knowledge of good and evil isn't required for obedience then I ask you, what is?

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Eve claimed to be "deceived", yet God had given them perfectly clear instruction. The simple truth is that she wanted to disobey (temptation), and she eventually yielded to it.

How do you know? The awnser is you dont because to say you know this you have to assume a few things, and no one can prove those assumptions.

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True, God could make a third or fourth "side" to the matter. However, the universe that we inhabit does not allow for the possibility of more than two: with God, or without God. Just as God is ou......

I should have been a little more spacific sorry. Let me redo this.

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Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having.

And it makes evil possible why? Because God chose for it to work this way.

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And if God is omnipotent, than he obviously made the universe the way He intended it to be.

And you dont see any problems with that?

___________________

People without self-doubt scare me.
The world is my country, science is my religion. - Christiaan Huygens
“Don’t take refuge in the false security of consensus.”

Home||Truth|Love

So this is asking why the fall of man occured or the way man will fall? If it's not the second post, then we should make another thread for it so that we can fantasize the way the world will "end."

___________________

Neverside - In Development. Expected Release: Unknown.
Tortustudios.com - In Development. Expected Release: Summer 2006.( You can visit it now)

Originally posted by Tool:

Originally posted by Coriakin:

Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having.

And it makes evil possible why? Because God chose for it to work this way.

Yes, I suppose you're right.
The way I see it, God wanted people to choose to be with Him. And the definition of "choice" infers that there has to be another option: choosing to live seperately from God, meaning sinning, and...there you go.

Originally posted by Tool:

Originally posted by Coriakin:

And if God is omnipotent, than he obviously made the universe the way He intended it to be.

And you dont see any problems with that?

Nope.
Quite honestly, the more of life I experience, the more I understand how wonderful it can be - mostly as the result of our own personal choices. Obviously there are short term things that I can't understand, but I can't see everything, so I don't know how things interconnect. God does. *Shrugs* I figure He knows what He's doing.

___________________

Love is the movement - Switchfoot

Last edited by Coriakin, January 17th, 2006 07:55 AM (Edited 1 times)

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Yes, I suppose you're right.
The way I see it, God wanted people to choose to be with Him. And the definition of "choice" infers that there has to be another option: choosing to live seperately from God, meaning sinning, and...there you go.

Yeah I understand that, but I just wana go up to God and ask him, "why this way". One of those questions we may never know, be there a god(s) or not.

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Nope. Grin
Quite honestly, the more of life I experience, the more I understand how wonderful it can be - mostly as the result of our own personal choices. Obviously there are short term things that I can't understand, but I can't see everything, so I don't know how things interconnect. God does. *Shrugs* I figure He knows what He's doing.

Well, I cant argue with your opion lol. Well I could but im tired...

___________________

People without self-doubt scare me.
The world is my country, science is my religion. - Christiaan Huygens
“Don’t take refuge in the false security of consensus.”

Home||Truth|Love