Neverside

Originally posted by vierstein:

yes, it depends on your inherent genetic morality.

Would you mind elaborating on the phrase "inherent genetic morality" please?

___________________

When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

I think 'good' in this sense is the general 'good' or good deeds, actions, etc...virtuous, basically.

And yes, I do believe people can be good with God. I think that everyone is born with an innate sense of personal moral values (hence, you can get 'bad' Christians yet 'good' Atheists, a belief in God doesn't imbue a higher degree of morality of virtue), and any religious teachings on top of that can mold a person (to a certain extent) one way or another.

___________________

"I once knew a man who said death smiles at us all;
All a man can do is smile back."

-Gladiator

So you're really asking if people are inherenty good?

Personally i think that people are inherently immoral with no sense of good or evil but rather react based on their personal experience and understanding with the world.

___________________

angelessme, antagonising neverside members, staff and administration since 2001.

Quote:

Personally i think that people are inherently immoral with no sense of good or evil but rather react based on their personal experience and understanding with the world.

Yup, just need to do a little Sociology studing to find that one out.

___________________

People without self-doubt scare me.
The world is my country, science is my religion. - Christiaan Huygens
“Don’t take refuge in the false security of consensus.�

Home||Truth|Love

Sociology is for homeless hippy students who leech social security from my hard paid taxes.

I mean um.. its um.. important.. for the ... um.. development of... err.. yeah

___________________

angelessme, antagonising neverside members, staff and administration since 2001.

Originally posted by Celldss:

Originally posted by vierstein:

yes, it depends on your inherent genetic morality.

Would you mind elaborating on the phrase "inherent genetic morality" please?

Sure.

Iâ??ll just quote GoM; he pretty much summed up my point:

Originally posted by GoM:

I think that everyone is born with an innate sense of personal moral values

I think that those moral values that we are born with are a part of our general personality, which is expressed according to our genetic code (not to say that our personalities do not change with environmental impacts)

___________________

|'Personal Growth'|'Personal Development'|
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
|Threadless T-Shirts|Last.fm:NS Group|

I'm agnostic, yet it is my firm believe that people should help those around them. I personally have given who knows how much money to various charities, as well as giving of myself. I also do my best to help anyone I see that has a need. In my last job (McDonald's) I'd often help the elderly and the disabled with more than just placing an order. I went beyond the call of duty in order to make them feel 100% comfortable.

And yet.. I'm agnostic. So I guess I'm trying to say that yeah, we can definitely be good without god.

___________________

This site is as dead as my website.

My answer to the topic would be yes. One doesn't need a religion or a god to direct his life in "goodness" and morality. Although religion may help contribute to the greater good with teachings of morality, good deeds, respect, and hard work, it's not what makes decisions for us (that's our job). The reasonable, average person would know the difference between right and wrong, and, in my opinion, the reasonable person would do his best to avoid breaking the law, respecting everyone, and providing help - all that without the Big Guy watching over his back.

___________________

There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

Originally posted by vierstein:

I think that those moral values that we are born with are a part of our general personality, which is expressed according to our genetic code (not to say that our personalities do not change with environmental impacts)

Is that to say that morality is genetic? If that is your position (and I apologize if I've misinterpreted you), then I see some logical problems, namely that people cannot, or I should say "should not", be blamed or punished (or praised) for genetic traits. In fact, genetic morality would be self-defeating, because morality is premised on choice, and a genetic element would remove (or at very best, compromise) any moral choice to be made.

EDIT: Moreover, morality without divine commandment is illogical, for there would be nothing which would universally anchor moral "ought". At very best, there could only be societal or situational ethics, which can only have "I ought to", not "You ought to", for there is no incumbant right of society to impose its own morals upon another.

___________________

When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

Last edited by Celldss, October 1st, 2005 04:35 AM (Edited 2 times)

Originally posted by celdss:

Is that to say that morality is genetic? If that is your position (and I apologize if I've misinterpreted you), then I see some logical problems, namely that people cannot, or I should say "should not", be blamed or punished (or praised) for genetic traits.

Most praise directed at people is generally due to their genetic traits and I think overall that is, in fact, the way to go. Someone who is genetically psychotic, should be punished for murdering people despite the fact that it wasn't due to his own choice per se. He would still not function in society and should therefore be removed from it (and possibly rehabilitated) until such time as he can function agreeably with fellow humans.

Originally posted by celdss:

In fact, genetic morality would be self-defeating, because morality is premised on choice,

Could you explain how 'morality is premised on choice'. I will reply with an assumption of what you are implying, but I would like it if you could go into a little bit more depth. It is an interesting topic.

Originally posted by celdss:

and a genetic element would remove (or at very best, compromise) any moral choice to be made.

I do not think we make 'moral choices' as such. I'm sure you could make a list now of what you would consider moral and immoral, therefore these choices are not made at the point of action but beforehand, you simply apply your personal moral code to the situation at hand.

Originally posted by celdss:

EDIT: Moreover, morality without divine commandment is illogical, for there would be nothing which would universally anchor moral "ought".

There is something at the center of my 'self' that tells me what i ought to do. I do not want this to come from somebody else (possibly the divine aspect comes from within, I'm not going to argue that here). And I do not mind that it is different for other people. Indeed the world would be rather boring otherwise.

Originally posted by celdss:

At very best, there could only be societal or situational ethics, which can only have "I ought to", not "You ought to", for there is no incumbant right of society to impose its own morals upon another.

Well, I would disagree. I believe I have the right to impose my morality on to others. If a friend of mine is on the verge of doing something significantly immoral in my mind, I would do whatever possible to change the choice he is about to make. My moral code requires me to do this.

___________________

|'Personal Growth'|'Personal Development'|
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.
|Threadless T-Shirts|Last.fm:NS Group|

Last edited by vierstein, October 1st, 2005 09:11 AM (Edited 2 times)