Neverside

Quote:

Originally posted by Heri

Many people claim they've read the Bible through serveral times and still don't believe most of what it says. It's because they are too stubborn to believe it.

For the sake of being devil's advocate, many devout christians/catholics/whatever are also too stubborn to see other ways. Not saying you are one of them, but the exist too

-G

___________________

"I once knew a man who said death smiles at us all;
All a man can do is smile back."

-Gladiator

You have a good point, but I must say that it is very difficult to define stubbornness. Like, when do you consider not believing something, stubbornness? A tricky question, one of which everyone/anyone here cannot answer.

Now, back to the pledge bit. In no way, shape, or form is anyone being forced into religion or out of their atheism by reciting our pledge. Say you listen to a talk show host (such as Rush Limbaugh), does listening to him force you to agree with him? He may convince you to agree with him, but he doesn't force you to.

I feel this subject of "under God" being removed from our pledge is an important issue; but I feel that many of the people involved in this issue just aren't using enough common sense. I believe the issue needs to be thrown away and we should leave the pledge the way it is. But, once again, it's just an opionion.

Your Rush Limbaugh point isn't really all that valid because not everyone in the USA knows who Rush Limbaugh is.

EVERYONE knows what the pledge is. It is recited from elementary school and you are expected to follow suit and stand, put your hand over your heart and recite it. There are many schools where teachers punish their students (detention, more homework, etc.) for not reciting the pledge.

Fact is, a good percentage of the population does not beleive in God. Some beleive that there is a god, but not a God. Notice the difference.

"One nation under God" was added in the mid 50s when a good 99% of the population was Christian. Nowadays (I don't know the exact number) probably a good 40%-50% do not beleive in God. That's why we have mosques and other places of worship now.

Whatever happened to separation of Church and State? That was meant to stray from the monarchial society that was in place in Europe where religion was driving society. It seems like even more and more, religion is being molded back into society through the government (State).

Separation of Church and State isn't in our constitution, it was in a letter sent by Tommas Jefferson... Separation of Church and State means that the State doesn't control the Church and the Church doesn't control the State, simple as that. So, "whatever happened to Church and State?" has no meaning because it isn't in our constitution in the first place.

Your numbers of 40-50% of America's population as being atheists is way, way, way off! There's absolutely no way it's that high, maybe 20% at most! However, there is no doubt in my mind that it will eventually get to 40-50%......

Somebody must be pretty misinformed if they don't even know who the #1 rated talk show host in America is. If somebody doesn't know who Rush Limbaugh is, then my guess is they probably don't know anything about who they are voting for in the elections except for which party the candidates are on, and thus don't know what they are talking about with issues like this. So, yes, my point about Rush Limbaugh is 100% valid. Plus, is was an example, did I say everyone had to know who he was?

Quote:

Originally posted by Heri
Separation of Church and State isn't in our constitution, it was in a letter sent by Tommas Jefferson... Separation of Church and State means that the State doesn't control the Church and the Church doesn't control the State, simple as that. So, "whatever happened to Church and State?" has no meaning because it isn't in our constitution in the first place.

Your numbers of 40-50% of America's population as being atheists is way, way, way off! There's absolutely no way it's that high, maybe 20% at most! However, there is no doubt in my mind that it will eventually get to 40-50%......

Somebody must be pretty misinformed if they don't even know who the #1 rated talk show host in America is. If somebody doesn't know who Rush Limbaugh is, then my guess is they probably don't know anything about who they are voting for in the elections except for which party the candidates are on, and thus don't know what they are talking about with issues like this. So, yes, my point about Rush Limbaugh is 100% valid. Plus, is was an example, did I say everyone had to know who he was?

/me clapping

___________________

Quote:

Originally posted by Heri
Separation of Church and State isn't in our constitution, it was in a letter sent by Tommas Jefferson... Separation of Church and State means that the State doesn't control the Church and the Church doesn't control the State, simple as that. So, "whatever happened to Church and State?" has no meaning because it isn't in our constitution in the first place.

Your numbers of 40-50% of America's population as being atheists is way, way, way off! There's absolutely no way it's that high, maybe 20% at most! However, there is no doubt in my mind that it will eventually get to 40-50%......

Somebody must be pretty misinformed if they don't even know who the #1 rated talk show host in America is. If somebody doesn't know who Rush Limbaugh is, then my guess is they probably don't know anything about who they are voting for in the elections except for which party the candidates are on, and thus don't know what they are talking about with issues like this. So, yes, my point about Rush Limbaugh is 100% valid. Plus, is was an example, did I say everyone had to know who he was?

Not once did I say the word atheist. I said "do not beleive in God". And, if you read my earlier posts, you would realize that God (spelled with a capital G) refers to the Christian deity. There are all sorts of people that beleive in a god, but not God. There is a difference. There a Buddhists, Muslims, Agnotists (spelling?) and many other forms of religion. They all beleive in a god, but not neccessarily in God.

And, you bringing up Rush Limbaugh again. I bet at least half of southern California has no clue who he is. Why? Because half of southern California are immigrants (legal or not) from Mexico that can barely speak English, so why would they even listen to a radio talk show? I also have friends who speak 100% English that don't know who he is. Why? They don't listen to the radio and don't care much for politics. I could get a conference call going right now to prove it.

The text to which you a referring:

Quote:

I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. (1)

Thomas Jefferson was in office at the time of writing this. It was written on January 1, 1802 and he was President from 1801-1809, so words written by a President (especially during the time he served) should not be taken with a grain of salt. They should in fact, as they always have been taken to mean what they say.

Last edited by evan, October 29th, 2003 11:33 PM (Edited 1 times)

Quote:

Originally posted by akdov
Not once did I say the word atheist. I said "do not beleive in God". And, if you read my earlier posts, you would realize that God (spelled with a capital G) refers to the Christian deity. There are all sorts of people that beleive in a god, but not God. There is a difference. There a Buddhists, Muslims, Agnotists (spelling?) and many other forms of religion. They all beleive in a god, but not neccessarily in God.

God is also the Jewish deity, just FYI.

___________________

When the love of power is exceeded by the power of love, the world will know peace.

This thread is getting rather ssssssspicayyyyy

-G

___________________

"I once knew a man who said death smiles at us all;
All a man can do is smile back."

-Gladiator

LOL. It's getting a little of topic too.
Back on topic.

Should either change it to "One nation, under a god" or remove it, IMO.

What if there's no god?

then it's one nation, under a lie....

And all nations are under god, if god exists.

But acknowledging them is unpatrotic

Doncha love classroom politics?

-G

___________________

"I once knew a man who said death smiles at us all;
All a man can do is smile back."

-Gladiator